【Cannes 2014·译】《地球之盐》导演维姆·文德斯访谈

地球

来源:戛纳官方资料
译者:Doctor
校对:dxw

【维姆·文德斯访谈】

你认识塞巴斯蒂昂·萨尔加多(Sebastião Salgado)多久了?见到他之前,你在哪里被他作品打动了?
我25年前就知道塞巴斯蒂昂·萨尔加多的作品了。我买了两件作品,那是很久以前了,这两件作品引起了我的共鸣,深深打动了我。我给它们配了相框,从那以后,一直挂在我书桌上面。受这些照片影响,我很快就参观了一个名为“在工作”的展览。从那时起,我就成了萨尔加多作品的铁杆粉丝,尽管我五、六年前才见到他本人。

什么催生了《地球之盐》(SALT OF THE EARTH)拍摄计划?
我们在他巴黎的办公地点见了面。他领我参观他的工作室,我看到了《起源》(Genesis)。那本书区别于他的其他作品,新奇又刺激,像往常一样,这项巨大的工程要过很久才会为人知晓。我被他的工作热情和决心迷住了。过了一阵我们又见面了,发现我们都喜欢足球,然后我们开始讨论摄影。有一天,他问我,是否有兴趣和他还有他的儿子朱利亚诺(Juliano)一起,开始一场漫无目的的旅行,因为他们觉得他们需要一个来自局外人的不同视角。

你决定和巴斯蒂昂·萨尔加多的儿子朱利亚诺共同拍摄这部电影后,你有没有必须要解决的问题?材料的多少,照片的选择?除了朱利亚诺拍摄其父亲的影像,你还留有其他镜头备用吗?
事实上,最大的问题是材料冗余。朱利亚诺已经陪他父亲旅行过几次了。所以有数小时的记录影像。我原打算跟随塞巴斯蒂昂完成至少两个任务——在西伯利亚北部和纳米比亚热气球探险——但因为我身体感到不适不能旅行所以我们不得不取消这些行程。所以,我开始关注他的摄影工作,我们在巴黎录了几次访谈。但我越了解他的工作,就有越多的疑问。当然,影像也有点过量了。

影片里你的出场总是温暖却又谨慎的:你都在什么时候什么地方采访的塞巴斯蒂昂·萨尔加多?是什么使你们决定了选用何种照片?
头几次采访时,我出现在了镜头中。但随着谈话的深入,我就愈发认为自己应该“消失”,我应该把整个空间交给塞巴斯蒂昂,尤其是那些照片。应该让作品为自己说话。所以我想用暗房进行拍摄工作:塞巴斯蒂昂站在屏幕前,看着照片,同时回答着关于它们的问题。所以摄影机在屏幕后面,透过他的照片拍摄—如果我能这样拍—幸好有半透明镜子,他可以同时看着照片和观众。我想这为观众提供了最私密的渠道去聆听他表达自己的观点,欣赏他的作品。我们或多或少删去“传统”的访谈,只留下其中一小部分。但它们成为了“暗房”阶段前的准备阶段。我们一起选择照片,这些照片主要搭配塞巴斯蒂昂讲述的故事和影片中出现的故事。我们有数小时的工作样片。

你是否把他带回照片拍摄的时间和地点,以此让他做出更多的评论?一家巴西金矿,萨赫勒饥荒,卢旺达种族大屠杀,等等。它们大部分都是悲情的照片。你是否和一些人指责他的一样,认为这些照片“太美”了?
在“暗房”里,我们花了一周多时间,大概按照时间顺序回顾了塞巴斯蒂昂的全部作品。这对他来讲很不好受—对摄影机后面的我们来说一样不好过—因为其中一些旅途会让人深感不安,一些则会使人心生寒意。塞巴斯蒂昂感觉自己好像又回到了这些地方,对于我们来说,这些“进入黑暗深处”的旅程一样不可抗拒。

有时我们得停下来,我得出门走一走,和我刚看见的、听见的保持一定距离。至于质疑他的照片过于漂亮和美化,我完全不同意这些批评。当你拍摄贫穷和疾苦时,你必须为你的拍摄对象留有一定尊严,避免变成偷窥的盛宴。这不是容易办到的事。只有你和镜头前的人们打成一片,真能进入他们的生活,了解他们的处境,你才能拍出这些照片。极少有摄影师能办到。大多数都是到了某个地方,拍一些照片,然后就离开。塞巴斯蒂昂并不这样工作。他花时间和拍摄对象相处,感受他们的处境。他和他们一起生活,与他们产生共鸣,尽可能地分享他们的生活。他身临其境,感同身受,为了他们的话语权而拍摄照片。瞬间的抓拍和“记录”风格的照片不能表达同样的涵义。你越了解如何以可信的方式表达某种处境,你就越要离和你要展现的事物和你面前的对象协调一致的语言越近,你越努力获得一张“好照片”,你越尊敬你的拍摄对象,想让他们引人注目。他的照片不是关于他自己,而是关于所有的那些人。

你工作时有《地球之盐》的脚本吗?还是剪辑的时候才决定影片结构的?
我把电影的大纲记在纸上,最后,“暗房”是概念上的设计,但总的来说,和其他任何一部纪录片一样,先前已经决定好了一些事情,但是也不要错过眼前发生的事情,你得努力拍好镜头。我去巴西拍摄塞巴斯蒂昂和他夫人莱利亚(Lélia),他们住在维多利亚,或者大地研究所中:这些出乎意料的事引导着我,准备当场拍摄。这是我对这部影片做出的另一项贡献:试图找到萨尔加多不同寻常的“别样生活”和其作品之间的联系。他们对生态的承诺和对再生热带大西洋沿岸森林的努力,在我看来,和他的作品一样重要。因此,我觉得我们同时在拍摄两部纪录片,然后剪辑成单独一部影片。

这部纪录片讲诉了一个人,并给他的作品带来生命。它也提供了一个令人触动的关于父子关系的研究。这种双重含义从一开始就很明显吗?
是的,着手做的时候,我们的电影就包含了不同的维度。从一开始,父子关系显然就是这部纪录片的一部分。它本会成为这部影片的陷阱,我想萨尔加多父子带上我是正确的,可以避免这样的事发生。但最后,父子关系成了整部电影中十分动人的一面。

萨尔加多的标志之一就是他对黑白的运用。他解释这个了吗?在你自己的电影(《公路之王》(KINGS OF THE ROAD),《柏林苍穹下》(WINGS OF DESIRE)中天使对世界的观察,《事物的状态》(THE STATE OF THINGS))。你运用黑白产生了很好的效果:这使你们更亲近吗?
是的,我是在效仿他对于黑白的运用。并且,我自己拍摄的一部分也是黑白的,这样会更加适应他的摄影作品。当时,我们在访谈中略微谈到了这个问题。但在最终我们删掉了这个片段。我觉得他的作品在这个方面是不言而喻的。

摄影是你们的共同点,自从你成为大家熟知的摄影师(像萨尔加多一样,是徕卡的终极粉丝),你电影中的很多角色(《爱丽丝城市漫游记》(ALICE IN THE CITIES)中的菲利普·温特(Philip Winter),《美国朋友》(THE AMERICAN FRIEND)中的汤姆·里普利(Tom Ripley),或是《德州巴黎》(PARIS, TEXAS)中的查韦斯(Travis))都和摄影或者照片有联系。萨尔加多也是用你了解他作品的方式了解你作品的吗?
我们拍电影时,塞巴斯蒂昂拍摄了很多照片,还给工作人员拍了照。所以我可能有幸出现在他的照片中。但我想他并不像我那样那么了解我的电影,他的作品是我拍摄这部影片的原因。他是我这部电影拍摄的对象,而不是反过来。

整部电影中,他夫人莱利亚·瓦内克·萨尔加多(Lélia Wanick Salgado)的出现在他的生活和作品中都扮演着重要的角色,这是显而易见的。那她也在《地球之盐》的制作过程中发挥了积极作用吗?
他们一共工作了50年。莱利亚给萨尔加多带来真正的活力,激励他工作,他们也一起经营着庞大的摄影计划。同样地,她也是这部影片的核心角色。她十分惊艳、坚强、有远见、诚实、可爱,而且很有趣。塞巴斯蒂昂一家都很爱笑!

影片的最后一部分是一次意外之旅,他们不但很亲密,同时也发挥了强大的生态力量:萨尔加多一家回到位于巴西艾莫雷斯的家庭农场。因森林砍伐造成的满目疮痍,萨尔加多家难以置信的冒险——正如我们所见,已经开始得益——重新种植两百万棵树木。对于作为个人的萨尔加多以及作为人类冲突记录者的萨尔加多来说,我们可以说这是一个美好的结局吗?
一开始,我们似乎必须得考虑萨尔加多一家除了摄影还过着其他一种生活的:他们对于环保的热爱。刚开头,我就知道我要同时讲两个故事。一个讲诉他们在巴西建立的重新造林工程,他们取得的近乎奇迹般的成就为萨尔加多带来了美满的结局。在他目睹了这些痛苦和上次从卢旺达回来陷入迷惘之后,在他经历过的这些难以承受的灾难之后。他不仅把他最近的作品《起源》献给了自然,而是正是自然使他保持着对人类的信念,这些成就给他带来了圆满的结局。

【朱利亚诺·里贝罗·萨尔加多访谈】

40年前,你出生在巴黎,你现在是电影和纪录片导演,你的第一部短片《苏珊娜》(SUZANA),揭露了在安哥拉杀伤人员地雷的使用。这本可能成为你父亲拍摄的主题……
的确是这样,那时我23。当时,我快要第一次当爸爸了,也必须要工作。所以我放弃了法律的学习,因为我意识到坐办公室并不适合我。还是个小孩的时候,就知道我爸爸的职业很酷。他周游世界,在重要事件的前线。常有人来我家讨论这些大事。我在旁边听,在小时候潜移默化地养成了对地缘政治的兴趣和热情。我想出去把握整个世界,虽然我还不知道具体怎么做,但我就已经告诉每个人我要不断学习不断发现了。我开始为Canal+频道和巴西Globo频道工作。1996年,我拍摄了自己的第一部短片《苏珊娜》。那时我和我爸爸一起去安哥拉,但我们不常在一起。他拍照片,我拍电影,从那时起,我明白了我们要去不同的世界,然后我就去了阿富汗、前那斯拉夫和巴西,在那里我有机会和祖父在他的农场呆上一阵儿。那时他96,我把他也拍进了《地球之盐》。当时我还是个孩子,不知不觉中就想过着我爸爸那种生活。他常不在家,从危险的地方回来,又立刻出发谴责不公。在我看来,这才是“正常的”生活方式。而现在,我要带着我应有的谦逊,以自己的方式追寻他的脚步。

早期你父亲常鼓励你吗?
是的,他总是带着极度的信心,甚至有点不顾一切。有一次,他觉得我独自一人前往阿富汗的计划真是太棒了。但我妈妈很担心,但她选择容忍我爸爸各种危险的旅行,所以她当时只好接受了。很幸运年轻时就能开始纪录片工作者的职业生涯并最终成功。我爸爸,他是个离我很远的英雄,他在家时,我们的关系并不是一直很好。从我青春期开始,我们之间就存在距离。我追寻着我自己的道路,拍摄自己的纪录片,然后我搬到了伦敦上电影学校。当时我俩的道路是截然分开的。2004年,他开始着手他最近的长期项目《起源》,花了八年时间探求还未被破坏的世外桃源,当时他建议我陪着他一起去。我有点不知道说些什么,不知道自己的工作怎样才能适合他。但我们第一次旅行却异常成功。我们去了巴西,亚马孙河流域的腹地,离最近的乡镇有300公里,我们见到了孤立的部落Zo’é(意思是“我们”),然后我们在那待了一个月。他们依然以旧石器时代的习惯生活着。我认为这是他们的特权,时间仿佛停在了那一刻。我和我父亲之间建立了联系,准确来说,是恢复了联系。然后我们去了巴布亚新几内亚,去了印尼Irian Jaya地区,待在另一个孤立的部落Yali,然后又去了北极圈里的弗兰格尔岛,那里住着海象和北极熊。这些旅途中,我们谈了很多以前从未谈起的事情,自从陪伴他旅行开始,我就找到了我拍摄那些镜头的目的。我爸爸看了我最初的剪辑,他很感动,热泪盈眶。

就在那时你觉得在你的电影中应该加入一个旁观者的视角,使自己的电影更充实,是吗?
这个过程已经在进展中。已经有关于塞巴斯蒂昂的影片了,也有关于其他摄影师的影片。但在我看来,似乎拍摄一部关于摄影师的电影有一些不足:一个人准备拍照,照片拍完故事也结束了,除非他再拍第二张、第三张等等。所以我觉得这么做不好。这部影片应该来自塞巴斯蒂昂自己的故事:他的独有的经历,40年来一直身处险境,亲眼目睹人性对抗灾难。通过探寻他的故事、他的回忆,我们将会提出这个问题:是什么改变了一个人?什么改变了巴斯蒂昂·萨尔加多?我得到了答案。我见过他和印第安人、和巴布亚人住在一起。他观察人们,但不评断他们。他把自己和他们看成是一样的,毫无疑问是因为他也来自位于巴西偏远地方的一个与世隔绝的小村庄。我想他拍摄的人们都能感觉到他镜头中的博爱。我常想拍照前和拍照后塞巴斯蒂昂和他们间发生了什么,这些交流如何能滋养我们。是的,即使是身处特权且冷漠的社会中的我们。这就是这部电影。但要整部电影成型,我们还需要别的作为旁观者的人,这样就可以无拘束地和塞巴斯蒂昂交流,可以判断电影的核心应该是什么。换句话说,为了展示这些年来他所关注事物的进化,我们可以从他生涯中学到的所有事情,以一种积极好战的方式—我知道他不喜欢这个词—因为他已经逐渐意识到,他的照片可以在某种程度上为他拍摄的人们做些什么。

维姆·文德斯(Wim Wenders)就在那个时候加入的吗?
维姆·文德斯是最理想的人选,他已经了解萨尔加多的作品,他们也见过几次。当时,维姆也在酝酿准备拍摄一部关于塞巴斯蒂昂的影片。我们见了好几次,谈了很多,很自然地就决定要一起拍电影了。他不仅理解整个计划,还立刻全身心投入到整个计划中。看见他如此顾及这个计划对于亲近的需要,而且还加入必要的元素,带入他自己独有的敏感观察,以及他自己在影像上的天赋,那感觉真棒。

你们是如何分配工作的?
我给维姆看了我在旅途中给我爸爸拍的片段,向他解释我觉得这些影像如何跟塞巴斯蒂昂的人生轨迹联系到一起,这样我们就能从他的陈诉、回忆以及他的处境中获得收获。这次讨论催生了我们这部电影的结构,但对于我的那部分……我无法保持足够的距离完成它。维姆·文德斯当时在努力完善这个男人的故事。我爸爸已经因为他自己拍摄的苦难感到疲惫,他独自承受着也害怕着他所经历的痛苦,他说:“在难民营里工作了这么多年,我见过这么多的死亡,我感觉自己都要死了。”本来,我想的是维姆和我爸爸坐在一个小桌子的两边,谈着话。但后来不是这样的。和文德斯这样的艺术家工作会改变很多事,他提出的以塞巴斯蒂昂的回忆对抗塞巴斯蒂昂的想法更精巧。这些对抗结束时,我们在剪辑室里待了一年半,这样我们可以去除某些复杂的叙事线索,使整部影片更简单、更直接。

苏珊·桑塔格(Susan Sontag)说道萨尔加多的作品里有“伪造的美”。你如何回应她这种看法?
桑塔格的指责有两方面:摄影师感受到的假象的对贫穷——事实上是死亡——的着迷,摄影师因为拍摄对象的牺牲获得尊敬,可他们依然无人知晓。她也指责委托制作和出版这些照片的媒体的玩世不恭。我认为把萨尔加多和这些联系在一起是不公平的。他常花费几周,甚至几年待在发生动乱的国家,他内心的坚持使他能忍受这些言论。他需要和他将拍摄的人们建立关系,也就是说拍摄对象停止“被”他拍照。情绪和移情指引着他。我想在电影里,这个解释得很清楚。

你母亲莱利亚遇见你父亲时17岁。她已经是你父亲生活中固定的存在。她参与《地球之盐》的程度有多少?
莱利亚没有直接参与到电影的制作当中,你也可以说塞巴斯蒂昂也没有参与!他们完全相信我和维姆。莱利亚和塞巴斯蒂昂的故事说来话长:他们常一起做决定,《地球之盐》属于他们两个人。

考虑到这个正在进行中的环境重建工程,回到家庭农场对你意味着什么?一项任务?一个乌托邦?一种未来?
考虑到农场的状况和周围荒凉的环境,没人相信这个,我也不信。一开始这是个适度的工程,原打算在这个儿时的家的旁边再种几棵树,我们可以回来度假。但我爸妈很明显受某事驱动着,他们再一次全身心投入到这项工程中。这个本应维持家庭规模的计划突然间变成了具有纪念意义的环保事业:“是的,我们将要重建整个森林。”他们建立了大地研究所,成了这个领域中最大的雇主。他们已经在祖父的农场上种了250万棵树,这个农场现在是生态保护区,还要在周边种100万棵。这是个疯狂的工程,巨大且高尚。

你正在准备你的第一部剧情片。你能谈谈吗?
场景设立在巴西的圣保罗,现在仍处在剧本创作阶段,但我能告诉你这是部心理恐怖片,它围绕着巴西社会中强有力的主题:社会的向上流动性。

【电影片段一】

【电影片段二】

【电影片段三】

Cinephilia
Cinephilia

迷影网(Cinephilia.net)创立于2010年,聚焦于创作和搜集最好的华语电影文字内容,翻译传播海外电影学术界和评论界的声音,用更为生活化的方式解读电影,结合编辑部、专栏作者群以及所有愿意分享个体电影体验的读者们,共同创造出中文世界里独具特色、质量兼备的电影网站。

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